Legislature(2003 - 2004)

04/01/2004 03:22 PM House HES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                                                                                                                                
HB 427-PROTECTION OF PERSONS AND PROPERTY                                                                                     
Number 1998                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WILSON announced  that the next order of  business would be                                                               
HOUSE  BILL  NO.  427,  "An Act  relating  to  guardianships  and                                                               
conservatorships,  to  the  public  guardian and  the  office  of                                                               
public advocacy,  to private  professional guardians  and private                                                               
professional  conservators,  to court  visitors,  court-appointed                                                               
attorneys,  guardians  ad  litem,  and fiduciaries,  and  to  the                                                               
protection  of the  person or  property  of certain  individuals,                                                               
including minors;  amending Rules  16(f) and 17(e),  Alaska Rules                                                               
of Probate Procedure; and providing for an effective date."                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1960                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JIM  SHINE, Staff  to Representative  Tom Anderson,  Alaska State                                                               
Legislature,  presented  the  bill on  behalf  of  Representative                                                               
Anderson, sponsor of  HB 427.  He provided  the following sponsor                                                               
statement:                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     HB  427   will  go   a  long  way   towards  preventing                                                                    
     exploitation   and  mistreatment   of  vulnerable   and                                                                    
     incapacitated  adults  receiving   the  services  of  a                                                                    
     private guardian  or conservator.  It  was drafted with                                                                    
     input   from   the   Alaska   State   Association   for                                                                    
     Guardianship  and Advocacy,  also known  as ASAGA,  the                                                                    
     Office of  Public Advocacy, Adult  Protective Services,                                                                    
     the Long-Term  Care Ombudsman's office,  the Disability                                                                    
     Law Center, and the Senior Advocacy Coalition.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     In  Alaska, professional  guardians  (both private  and                                                                    
     public)  and  family   guardians  provide  services  to                                                                    
     approximately 2,500 disabled, vulnerable adults.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Under current  law, private guardians  and conservators                                                                    
     - individuals with the  responsibility to make housing,                                                                    
     legal and  medical decisions for the  disabled, infirm,                                                                    
     mentally ill, and seniors  - are completely unregulated                                                                    
     by  the  State.    Many  other  states  regulate  their                                                                    
     private  guardians appropriately  so.   Vulnerable  and                                                                    
     incapacitated adults  are easy  prey for  those wishing                                                                    
     to exploit their resources.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     This  legislation  would  grant  the  State  regulatory                                                                    
     authority over  private guardians and  conservators and                                                                    
     establish  minimum qualifications  and standards.   The                                                                    
     State oversight and standards for  such a sensitive and                                                                    
     critical  job  will  help ensure  that  vulnerable  and                                                                    
     incapacitated adults receive the care they deserve.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     HB 427 would ensure  those individuals or organizations                                                                    
     wishing to  serve as private guardians  or conservators                                                                    
     meet  certain criteria,  and register  with the  State.                                                                    
     Specifically,   this   legislation   requires   private                                                                    
     guardians to be certified  by the National Guardianship                                                                    
     Foundation and  have at least  2 years  of professional                                                                    
     experience working  with clients, or a  degree in human                                                                    
     services,    social   work,    psychology,   sociology,                                                                    
     gerontology,  special education,  or a  closely related                                                                    
     field.   HB  427 will  also require  guardians to  have                                                                    
     experience  in  financial  management or  a  degree  in                                                                    
     accounting.    Critically, this  legislation  prohibits                                                                    
     private guardians  from registering with the  State and                                                                    
     practicing   until  a   State  and   national  criminal                                                                    
     background check is performed.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Finally,  HB 427  allows the  Division of  Occupational                                                                    
     Licensing to revoke a private  guardian's license if he                                                                    
     or  she has  been found  to have  abandoned, exploited,                                                                    
     abused, or  neglected his  or her  ward, or  has become                                                                    
     unfit  due to  professional  incompetence.   In  short,                                                                    
     through regulatory  oversight and the  establishment of                                                                    
     professional and  academic standards,  this legislation                                                                    
     will help  ensure disabled adults are  not exploited by                                                                    
     those entrusted to manage their affairs.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 1882                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO  moved  to  adopt  CSHB  427,  23-LS1627\D,                                                               
Bannister, 4/1/04, before the committee  as the working document.                                                               
There being  no objection,  CSHB 427, Version  D, was  before the                                                               
House Health, Education and Social Services Standing Committee.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. SHINE  responded that he  will defer  to Betty Wells  who has                                                               
been working with the drafter on  the bill.  He commented that it                                                               
is his  understanding that Version D  has taken away most  of the                                                               
registration requirements and placed  the responsibility with the                                                               
Division of Occupational Licensing.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 1854                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked if the  committee could be advised of                                                               
the differences between Version A and Version D.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 1806                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
BETTY   WELLS,   President,    Alaska   State   Association   for                                                               
Guardianship  Advocacy (ASAGA);  testified in  support of  HB 427                                                               
and  answered  questions from  the  members.   She  provided  the                                                               
following statement:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     In terms  of what you have  in front of you,  the first                                                                    
     ten  pages are  the sections  [Sec. 13.26.]500  through                                                                    
     [Section  13.26.]590 from  the earlier  draft and  took                                                                    
     the statutory  regulations pretty much verbatim  out of                                                                    
     500  through   590  and  put  that   into  Occupational                                                                    
     Licensing.   So the  first ten  pages of  the committee                                                                    
     substitute were  in the  old draft,  they were  just in                                                                    
     the  back.   In addition  to doing  that it  also added                                                                    
     some new  language with  requirements for  licensure in                                                                    
     terms of age of  the person, education, experience, and                                                                    
     provides  for  a temporary  license  and  those are  in                                                                    
     08.26.030  and  040,  on  page  two  of  the  committee                                                                    
     substitute.   That is the  major change from  the draft                                                                    
     to the committee substitute.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WILSON  commented that  this is  an effort  to pull  all of                                                               
[licensing requirements] together.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS.   WELLS   replied  that   the   requirements   were  in   the                                                               
guardianships statutes in  AS 13.26.  They were moved  out of the                                                               
registration  for  private   professional  guardians  and  pulled                                                               
together  and moved  to the  statutes for  occupational licensing                                                               
which is  in AS  08.01.   After conferring  with the  Division of                                                               
Occupational  Licensing it  was  decided that  there was  greater                                                               
comfort in monitoring  this program by calling it  a license, she                                                               
said.   It has gone  from a registration  to a license  under the                                                               
Division of Occupational Licensing, she added.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. WELLS  told the members that  the other language in  the bill                                                               
is  clarifying  current statutory  language  and  practice.   She                                                               
reiterated that the  vital changes are in the first  ten pages of                                                               
the committee substitute which regulates  private guardians.  Ms.                                                               
Wells  explained  that currently  Alaska  has  no regulations  in                                                               
place.   A  couple of  years  ago there  was an  incident with  a                                                               
private agency and  it eventually went bankrupt.   There is still                                                               
fallout  from that,  and this  event made  ASAGA realize  that it                                                               
could  no longer  be  thought that  Alaskans  are protected,  she                                                               
said.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. WELLS said that Alaska is  not alone in the effort to protect                                                               
vulnerable adults.   She shared that there have  been recent news                                                               
articles in  the Detroit Free Press  and out of Queens,  New York                                                               
expressing the need for wide spread reform.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1712                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  WELLS  reiterated  Mr.  Shine's comments  that  this  was  a                                                               
collaborative effort which took place over the last six years.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 1682                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF asked Ms. Wells if she is a guardian.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. WELLS replied no.   She told the members that  she is a court                                                               
visitor in the  Third Judicial District in Anchorage.   Ms. Wells                                                               
explained  that   she  has  been  working   with  adult  guardian                                                               
investigations for about 15 years.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF  asked Ms. Wells  if she has a  family member                                                               
or a personal friend that is a guardian.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. WELLS responded  that she does not.  She  emphasized that she                                                               
works  with  guardians.    Ms.  Wells explained  that  she  is  a                                                               
registered  guardian with  the  National Guardianship  Foundation                                                               
through  her work  and has  served as  a guardian  on a  contract                                                               
basis through the  Office of Public Advocacy  at different times.                                                               
She stated she primarily works as a court investigator.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1622                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO  commented that the  bill is 28  pages long,                                                               
and the sectional  analysis has 33 parts.  He  asked if Ms. Wells                                                               
would provide a summarizing statement.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. WELLS  reiterated that the  first ten pages of  the committee                                                               
substitute  is  new  legislation   which  is  being  proposed  to                                                               
regulate private agencies.  Currently  there is no legislation in                                                               
place.  For example, a person  could have a felony conviction for                                                               
embezzlement  and if  a judge  were conned  into appointing  that                                                               
person he/she could serve as a  guardian.  She explained that the                                                               
new  legislation takes  the responsibility  away from  the judges                                                               
and  places  the  licensing  requirement  with  the  Division  of                                                               
Occupational  Licensing.   The  rest  of  the bill  is  basically                                                               
clarification and  clean up language  of the  conservatorship and                                                               
guardianship  statutes.   She stated  that ASAGA  believes it  is                                                               
essential to  put trust back in  the system.  Ms.  Wells told the                                                               
members that Alaska  is far ahead of many states  with respect to                                                               
the rights that are guaranteed to vulnerable adults.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 1491                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked what was  the composition of the group                                                               
who developed what constituted good regulations.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 1479                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. WELLS responded  that there was a study done  by the McDowell                                                               
Research Group in  1997 which was funded through  the Division of                                                               
Senior Services in Anchorage.   The McDowell Study made six major                                                               
recommendations.  The groups that  has been working on this since                                                               
1997  are the  Disability Law  Center, private  attorneys, public                                                               
guardians,  private   guardianship  agencies,   court  officials,                                                               
family guardians,  Adult Protective  Services, and  the Long-Term                                                               
Care Ombudsman.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA  asked if  the group  looked at  what other                                                               
states have done.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS. WELLS  replied that currently Washington  and Arizona require                                                               
that a  private professional guardian  be licensed  or registered                                                               
with  the state  and be  certified by  the National  Guardianship                                                               
Foundation.    As  of  January   1,  2003  Florida  requires  all                                                               
professional guardians  be licensed  and seek  ongoing education.                                                               
California is  now working on  state specific  certification that                                                               
will work  with national  certification.   She said  she believes                                                               
these  states are  ahead of  Alaska.   Ms.  Wells explained  that                                                               
there are states  out there that do not  offer respondents rights                                                               
of having  an attorney or a  court hearing.  She  summarized that                                                               
Alaska has  been ahead in  some of the recommendations  that have                                                               
been made nationally, but HB 427 is an important bill.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 1308                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JOSH FINK,  Director, Office of Public  Advocacy (OPA), testified                                                               
in support  of HB  427 and answered  questions from  the members.                                                               
He  told the  members  that  he believes  this  bill is  critical                                                               
because there  is a  need to  regulate the  professional industry                                                               
that  has such  immense power  over vulnerable  and incapacitated                                                               
adults.    The state  regulates  hairdressers,  but it  does  not                                                               
regulate  people who  make decisions  about others  medical care,                                                               
housing,  or legal  decisions.   He  reminded the  members of  an                                                               
incident that  happened many years  ago where a  private guardian                                                               
went bankrupt.   He  commented that the  office is  still dealing                                                               
with the consequences of that event.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FINK  said  he  believes  it  is  important  to  ensure  the                                                               
integrity of  this industry with the  public and the courts.   He                                                               
explained  the OPA  is  currently the  guardian  of last  resort.                                                               
When looking  for a guardian  the family is considered  first and                                                               
then private  organizations are suppose  to be  considered before                                                               
going to OPA.   However, increasingly the courts do  not have any                                                               
level of confidence in the private  guardians out there so OPA is                                                               
being appointed  more and more.   Mr. Fink said he  would like to                                                               
encourage the development of  more private professional guardians                                                               
and conservators.   It would be better  for private professionals                                                               
to cover that  void than government agencies, he added.   He said                                                               
he  does not  believe that  there will  be an  industry developed                                                               
with the level  of confidence needed in the  private sector until                                                               
there are state regulations in place.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 1188                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  WOLF asked  Mr. Fink  if  he, any  member of  his                                                               
family, or a personal friend are guardians.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK replied  that there a number of public  guardians in the                                                               
agency.    He  commented  that  Jim  Parker,  Supervisor,  Public                                                               
Guardians  Section,   of  OPA,  and  Steve   Young,  lead  public                                                               
guardian, are  sitting in on this  meeting.  Mr. Fink  added that                                                               
he  is also  acquainted  with "B"  Jarvi in  Fairbanks  who is  a                                                               
private guardian.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE WOLF asked if these  individuals have gone through                                                               
the process  and have  answered the questions  necessary to  be a                                                               
guardian for a vulnerable adult.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FINK  commented  that  Sharon   Wells  was  instrumental  in                                                               
crafting  the  legislation.   He  said  OPA's  public  guardians,                                                               
including Steve  Young and  Jim Parker worked  on the  bill also.                                                               
The Private Guardian Services Corporation  (PGSC) where "B" Jarvi                                                               
is associated has  been a member of ASAGA, but  recently, he said                                                               
it withdrew from the group.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1087                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  referred to  page 16,  lines 7  through 11                                                               
and read the following new language:                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     When  appointing   a  relative  or  a   friend  of  the                                                                
     incapacitated   person   as    the   guardian   of   an                                                                
     incapacitated person, the court  shall require that the                                                                
     proposed  guardian  complete  one  hour  of  manadatory                                                                
     education on  the basics of  a guardianship  before the                                                                
     appointment or within 30 days after the appointment.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON asked if the  one-hour course exists now or                                                               
is a  requirement that  will be formulated  after the  passage of                                                               
this legislation.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 1036                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK  responded that the  OPA currently provides  training to                                                               
families on how to provide  guardianship services.  That training                                                               
is  made available  to  communities  and there  are  a number  of                                                               
people who  offer classes.   He  added that  OPA also  has books,                                                               
videos,  and  written  material  which has  been  put  in  public                                                               
libraries.  He added that  currently OPA has distributed material                                                               
to the courthouse as  well.  In summary this is  not a class that                                                               
needs to be created, the  material is already available, Mr. Fink                                                               
said.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 1011                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER asked if  any faith-based groups are doing                                                               
this kind of work.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK replied not to his knowledge.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KAPSNER asked  if guardian  ad litems  for adults                                                               
with disabilities is  pretty much the same as  guardian ad litems                                                               
for children in need of aid cases (CINA).                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK responded  that the two are different.   The guardian ad                                                               
litems  in a  child's case  represents the  best interest  of the                                                               
child.  When the problems are  resolved, the guardian ad litem is                                                               
no longer  involved.   When there  is an adult  with a  public or                                                               
private guardian  typically most  disabled adults  have life-long                                                               
disabilities and the  guardian would be a  long-term guardian and                                                               
would be looking out for the best interest of the client.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER commented that  in CINA cases the guardian                                                               
ad litems are appointed, and asked  if it works the same way with                                                               
guardians.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  FINK replied  there are  two different  processes.   In CINA                                                               
cases typically  the state  will removed a  child from  the home,                                                               
and start the  court process.  However, with  guardianship case a                                                               
petitioner could  be a family  member, a friend, or  a co-worker.                                                               
It still  requires going to  court, but there are  different laws                                                               
that apply, he said.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 0850                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KAPSNER referred  to Section  7 in  the sectional                                                               
analysis where it says:                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Section  7.    Deletes  an option  for  a  guardian  to                                                                
     request  that a  visitor  be appointed  to prepare  and                                                                    
     submit  a  report.    Requires a  court  to  appoint  a                                                                    
     visitor every  three years to  file a  report reviewing                                                                    
     the guardianship.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KAPSNER commented that  she is unfamiliar with the                                                               
terminology  and asked  what  the term  "visitor"  means in  this                                                               
case.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 0850                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  WELLS replied  that the  current language  indicates that  a                                                               
visitor would  be appointed to  do a report.   The intent  of the                                                               
statute  is that  a visitor  would be  appointed to  do a  report                                                               
reviewing guardianship  every three years.   The guardian  has to                                                               
do a report every year, and  then every three years a visitor has                                                               
to  do  a  report  for  the courts.    This  is  just  clarifying                                                               
language, she commented.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KAPSNER reiterated  that she  does not  know what                                                               
"visitor" means in this context.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS.  WELLS  responded   that  in  this  bill  a   visitor  is  an                                                               
investigator.   The  visitor provides  notice to  the person  and                                                               
talks to the  petitioner, the person, the  doctor, and relatives.                                                               
The visitor  provides a report to  the court prior to  a guardian                                                               
being appointed.   Then every three years the  visitor provides a                                                               
review  of the  guardianship to  the court.   This  language just                                                               
clarifies  that a  review is  done every  three years,  not every                                                               
year, she said.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 0750                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JIM PARKER,  Attorney, Public Guardian Section,  Office of Public                                                               
Advocacy, testified  on HB  427.   He told  the members  that the                                                               
Office  of Public  Advocacy is  the agency  of last  resort.   It                                                               
provides  guardianship services  to  disabled adults  who do  not                                                               
have  family or  friends  available  to serve.    When a  private                                                               
organization  went bankrupt  a few  years ago  it left  a lot  of                                                               
people in bad shape,  he said.  It is important  that it does not                                                               
happen again.  He  said he believes that HB 427  will not make it                                                               
too onerous or difficult for those  who are willing to serve, Mr.                                                               
Parker commented.   There needs  to be  a good balance  that will                                                               
protect vulnerable Alaskans.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 0636                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
"B" JARVI, Professional  Guardian, Professional Guardian Services                                                               
Corporation,  testified on  HB 427.   She  told the  members that                                                               
private professional  guardians are  not notified that  cases are                                                               
available from  the court visitor,  the court itself, or  the OPA                                                               
contract attorney.   Ms. Jarvi said she has been  told that it is                                                               
the  decision  of  the  head  court  visitor  to  omit  notifying                                                               
professional guardians  of cases available.   Ms. Jarvi  told the                                                               
members that since she  is not in court it is a  bit hard for the                                                               
courts   to  determine   whether   the   services  provided   are                                                               
trustworthy or not.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS. JARVI  said she has been  told that the latest  data reflects                                                               
that professional private guardians only  have ten percent of the                                                               
cases, which  means the  OGA who  regulates the  private guardian                                                               
industry is also the main competitor.   She told the members that                                                               
when  she  does  hear of  a  case  and  goes  into court  she  is                                                               
confronted by the  OPA contract attorney who is paid  by the hour                                                               
by the OPA, a  court visitor who is paid by  the OPA, and members                                                               
of the  staff of  the OPA fighting  for the case.   She  told the                                                               
members  there is  a stacked  deck  against professional  private                                                               
guardians.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. JARVI  testified that she  has no problem  with certification                                                               
of  professional or  private guardians  and believes  it to  be a                                                               
good idea for everyone.  However,  she said she believes that the                                                               
guardians in  the state  OPA should also  meet the  same criteria                                                               
and court visitors  should also have standards  imposed upon them                                                               
with respect  to professional  liability.   She added  that there                                                               
should also  be background  checks required  of OPA  staff, court                                                               
visitors, and contractors.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 0399                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. JARVI  explained that OPA  is currently setting fees  for her                                                               
business at  $40 per hour, as  opposed to what it  actually costs                                                               
to provide this  service.  She explained that  she cannot compete                                                               
at  that rate  and still  cover the  overhead costs.   Ms.  Jarvi                                                               
reiterated that  she is glad  to meet any standards  and criteria                                                               
provided  that  there is  a  level  playing  field and  the  same                                                               
criteria applies to  everyone else.  She explained  that there is                                                               
a lot of  conflict between the private guardians  and OPA because                                                               
it has the  option of regulating the private  guardians.  Someone                                                               
has to  regulate the  industry, but  by far  the large  number of                                                               
complaints are  against OPA, not  the private  guardians, because                                                               
no one is  regulating OPA, she pointed out.   Ms. Jarvi commented                                                               
that she  believes Alaska statute provides  very good protection.                                                               
She  reiterated  the  unfairness  of the  agency  regulating  and                                                               
reviewing its competition.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.  JARVI  stated that  this  bill  is  a self-serving  bill  to                                                               
increase staffing  and the  role of  OPA.   Under statute  OPA is                                                               
required to look for alternate  guardians and conservators.  This                                                               
is not happening, Ms. Jarvi told the members.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS.  JARVI  shared  an  experience where  she  had  a  respondent                                                               
nominate  her as  guardian, go  to court,  only to  have the  OPA                                                               
attorney steer  the case to  OPA.  Even  though he is  suppose to                                                               
represent the  respondent, he also  is the guardian ad  litem and                                                               
projects his wishes as if it were the respondents, she said.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 04-27, SIDE A                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 0038                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. JARVI  emphasized the  importance of  having a  level playing                                                               
field.   She urged the  members to ensure  that the OPA  does not                                                               
compete with the  private sector.  The system needs  to be fixed,                                                               
she said.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 0107                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR WILSON announced that HB 427 would be held in committee.                                                                  

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